CAP 32 - Part 3 - Concept Assessment 2

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shnowshner

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Sorta enjoy the idea of a hazard setter, particularly Rocks given how removal is generally pressured by us except for Glimmora. Fitting Rocks on a team this gen has felt, bad? Like the mons that can use Rocks have so many other great options: 3A Roost Venom, IronPress Salt Cure Garg, offensive Tusk, very strong sets. Freeing up their slots with a Fairy and Fire type Rocker sounds very practical. Would type more but I gotta earn money.
 

spoo

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Hey y'all, loving the insights so far. Dropping in to say that I've been swamped with midterms so it'll be a little longer than planned before I can move this thread along. I plan to focus discussion onto the roles I've seen discussed most and aim to compile a slate of two or three options to send to poll. Feel free to keep answering the questions I posed or frankly talk about whatever else you're interested in before I make my next post (hopefully tomorrow).
 

Voltage

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I'd also like to remind us of our discussion about roles in the first Concept Assessment where we decided that offensive routes generally seemed best for mons with middling stats:

What kinds of roles can Fire/Fairy reasonably fill? What kinds of roles does Fire/Fairy naturally lend itself to? What kinds of roles would be best for Fire/Fairy?
These questions might sound the same, but they're quite different. The first question asks in other words what our full design space is/if there are any roles that simply don't make sense. The second question is geared towards the inherent merits/demerits of the typing itself. Note that when looking at offensive merit, our super-effective coverage by the numbers isn't the only important factor: what STAB options this typing has access to, whether or not the mons that we hit SE can threaten us back, etc, are things to consider as well. Likewise, when looking at defensive merit, some of the mons whose STABs we resist may be able to beat us with coverage or utility options. The last question asks you to consider whether or not to lean into our natural strengths. For example, if we think our typing is geared towards defense, is it best to double down as a wall? Or is it best to shore up our offensive shortcomings, striking some kind of offense/defense balance as a tank or bulky wallbreaker?
Something to chew on since I think we've considered a lot of roles themselves in a vacuum with what Fire/Fairy can give us, and maybe a little less on what it can do in conjunction with an average spread of stats and the general aspects each individual typing can bring to the table.

Beyond Clefable, who has been essentially a metagame staple in previous generations despite its average stats, there have been very few vialbe Fairy types that didn't use their secondary typing to account for their average stats (i.e. the tapus are really good and have REALLY good stats, so I'll be ignoring them here). Klefki in particular stands out as it was a present enough threat in ORAS UU because of its additional Steel type (an inherently defensive typing), its ability Prankster, and it's broad movepool full of status moves. Similarly in ORAS, Azumarill made use of its Water typing (a very reasonable typing for both offense and Defensive capabilities), physical Water type attacking movepool and its absolutely life-saving ability in Huge Power to be successful. fairy types are able to cover up average stats in both offensive and defensive ways as shown by these two Pokemon (and sometimes at the same time as shown by Clefable).

Fire types, on the other hand, have almost always have had some kind of inherent offensive-ness that has allowed them to be fundamentally successful, as defensive Fire type Pokemon with average stats have rarely seen success in the top metagames. It wasn't until Gen 8 that we were able to see Fire type be able to take on a truly exclusively defensive niche (Ho-Oh in Gen 8 Ubers, and now Skeledirge in this gen), save for Heatran which was only afforded a specially defensive niche thanks to, again, the Steel type and REALLY GOOD STATS. Consider instead, a Pokemon like Torkoal that had very good defensive stats, but anguished in PU until obtaining Drought due to the rest of its features lacking any meaningful threatening presences whatsoever (ability and movepool, mainly). Considering viable fire types with more average stats not afforded a clearance by Heavy Duty Boots, we can find MAYBE Talonflame in early XY and ORAS which was viable thanks to its exceptionally good ability in Gale Wings which provided it a fundamental offensive niche, or Blaziken in current generations which has Speed Boost to supplant an otherwise middling 80 Speed. The point I'm hoping to make here is that, historically, Fire types are viable when they have a much more offensive presence, even without Heavy Duty Boots.

Should we want to take on an exclusively defensive approach to CAP32, by forcing it into a defensive pivot, wall, or boost remover, I fail to see how we will be reasonably successful with these locked-in typing and stats. Because we have opted for the Fire type, in order to have almost any defensive presence with our average stats, we will be locked into using some very specific items, and would likely need to bolster this mon significantly with a very wide movepool and very strong ability, and even then it would still be competing with Skeledirge and Arghonaut, both who can pull off the Fairy type better thanks to Terastalization, with the former also having Fire Coverage as a result. Furthermore, we are still substantially threatened by more defensive Pokemon STABS like Garganacl's Salt Cure, Venomicon's Sludge Bomb, and Snaelstrom's Razor Shell, which to me doesn't feel very good when the point of the mon is to maintain a defensive presence. Yes, Fire Fairy does grant an immunity to Dragon type moves, but beyond a Walking Wake or Dragapult Draco Meteor, or a Baxcalibur's Glaive Rush, are therethat many Pokemon actually spamming Dragon type moves? Even Hydreigon still threatens a defensive, more passive, Fire / Fairy type Pokemon, with its Earth Power if the Fire / Fairy type can't do much back to it (especially if it goes Tera Poison, for example).

Also with respect to Hazards, I think it would be a fools errand to try and make a Fire / Fairy typed mon one's primary means of setting or clearing hazards. The former is something that in theory could be done through careful tailoring of stats and moves, but even then, I fail to see why I would want to use this mon as a Rocks setter over Venomicon, Great Tusk or Crucibelle, and a Spikes setter over Arghonaut or Astrolotl, beyond threatening Corviknight and Equilibra (the latter of which still can beat us with its STAB). The latter is an even worse idea in my opinion. I recall a little while back on a team tour when building, I got some good advice that I think directly applies here: "You don't want your primary means of hazard control to be weak to hazards". Corviknight makes for an excellent Defogger for its neutrality to rocks and its immunity to Spikes without requiring any kind of an item (i.e. based solely on its typing). Tornadus-T was able to get away with running Defog and taking Stealth Rock damage because of its ability in Regenerator, and then later the introduction of Heavy Duty boots. Compare, then something like Moltres, who, like Tornadus-T, benefits from Heavy Duty Boots, which allows it to have a defensive presence. Despite it having the move in its movepool, Moltres never ran Defog consistently due to the fact that if it lost Heavy Duty Boots, it was crippled by its typing (Fire/Flying) and wouldn't be able to consistently return to the field of play. When we look at CAP32 then, after immediately looking at Moltres, while Fire / fairy won't take 50% from Rocks, it WILL take Spikes damage in addition to Rocks damage without Heavy Duty Boots, making it almost just as short-lived as a boots-less Moltres, which in my opinion makes it a poor candidate for a hazard remover without significant boons in later stages.

In comparison, when we consider Fire and Fairy together, suddenly we have two typings that both have demonstrated a clear offensive presence in the metagame, as they have excellent coverage, being resisted only by other Fire types. There are easily spammble moves from both typings on both sides of the physical / special spectrum, which means that this typing allows us to explore just how much a reasonably good typing and middling stats affects our "Power Budget" as listed in the questions section. I have to agree with a lot of the posters here who argue that we should take an Offensive approach, ideally either an Offensive Wallbreaker, or Offensive Pivot . The combination of Fire/Fairy applies immense offensive pressure simply from these two provided STABs, and even if we were to take a more defensive route, odds are that through the process we will still be leaning on the offensive boons provided by this typing as snake_rattler noted.

Of course, the Offensive presence will have to compete with the likes of Iron Moth, Cinderace, and Volcarona, but I think that there's still a clearly defined niche for a Fire/Fairy type: the ability to take on Arghonaut and Dragon types. As Brambane noted, Argh and Dragon types are able to more or less stop all of these previously listed Fire types dead in their tracks as they would have to handle not only these mons' initial types, but also any potential terastalizations. In contrast, CAP32 will be able to immediately threaten these mons due to STABs alone which is crucial when we consider the question "why run CAP32, when you could run another Fire type?" Furthermore, an offensively-leaning role allows us explicitly force switches with these more passive defensive Pokemon. I return to Arghonaut (because holy moly Arghonaut is a good mon) because Arghonaut presently rarely runs any water coverage, opting instead for its tried-and-true set of Knock / Spikes / Recover / Circle Throw. Arghonaut cannot immediately pressure a Fire / Fairy mon beyond Knocking Off its item as is immediately threated by potential Fairy STAB. There is a clear offensive niche for a Fire / Fairy type in this metagame, even one that has more average stats.

TL;DR I'm just repeating what's been said by the champions of an Offensive Role for CAP32. I'm partial to one that has some kind of inherent power to be a nice strong Offensive Wallbreaker, Offensive Pivot or even a Glass Cannon.
 
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Brambane

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I generally agree with voltage above and others who have been championing the offensive direction for CAP32. I think any role we choose should have "offensive" tagged onto it.

If you want to be a pivot, be an offensive pivot. If we want to pursue hazard setting, be an offensive one such as Greninja, LO Garchomp, or offensive Great Tusk. If we want to pursue removal, we should be offensive removal, emulating Court Change Cinderace, Spin Caribolt, offensive Great Tusk, or that one bad Maushold set everyone used the first week of SV. If we want to be a cleric... well those don't exist anymore except for Pawmot, but it is a pretty good example of what an offensive cleric can look like.

And of course there are the exclusively offensive roles such as wallbreaker which seem excellent as well. Glass cannon is extremely enticing too.

I am less enthused towards set-up sweeping unless we specifically make this mon solid in Skeledirge and Clodsire, as both Iron Moth and Volcarona can pressure Argh without sacrificing too much of their moveset, but have to make big sacrifices in their movesets to hit the former two Unaware walls. Dondozo isn't real.
 

quziel

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Gotta agree with Ama that defensive pivot fits us well. Fire + Fairy is a pretty great offensive combo if you want to use it to ward off opponents switching in, but it becomes a bit (read, only a bit, its very competent on a wallbreaking profile) worse if you expect it to carry much of your wallbreaking profile. Hence I sorta feel it works for us if we assume a Ferrothorn style offensive profile, where we are just really, really annoying to swap into. Fire + Fairy is also relatively solid defensively, though not amazing, but that's something we can absolutely tune in the coming stages.

Aka Defensive Pivot is imo great because Fire + Fairy is very hard to switch into without getting punished in some way, but taking it from hard to switch into to proper wallbreaking is difficult, but still possible.
 
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Based on a lot of the comments here, I’m seeing a lot of support for some kind of pivot. I think something interesting we could try and pursue is, as I mentioned before in my previous post, a role similar to Gastrodon. My reasoning for this is having an at least somewhat defensively oriented typing, the preference of Boots to block hazard damage, and the at least passable offensive capabilities. This way we can somewhat double dip into having the potential to be either offensively inclined, or defensively inclined.

Just for posterity, Gastrodon has a BST of 475, well within the parameters of below average for OU and has had at least a niche in the tier for many generations, which is why I’m inclined to suggest looking to it for reference if we intend to make a solid mon with lasting meta game relevance.
 
GL ON MIDTERMS SPOO


To contribute to the discussion:

110811FD-BE2C-4E48-8FDA-C85B9686EE3F.jpeg


(Also, it might seem I’m targeting Voltage here, I’m not just using his post as a basis for the argument as it’s a really good one)
For real tho, I think Fire/Fairy’s offensive potential is being overlooked here. I think the pro-offense side thinks that Dragon is (somehow) the only type we resist/are immune to. This is obviously not true as we have good matchups against common Bug, Dark, Fighting, and Fire Pokémon. I think the need for holding HDB is not a problem for a defensive Pokemon. HDB is a requirement for all Fire and Flying types, that’s just kinda how it works. Heck, HDB is a great defensive item, as it ignores the Hazards on the field. Also, I think in CA1 we established that we could have a higher power budget, so now that we’re forced to run HDB, I think the power budget is definitely still present.

Anyway, I’m not against making CAP32 not an offensive Pokémon, in fact I’m against that. I just think CAP32 shouldn’t solely rely on an offensive role.
 
I don't believe Fire/Fairy was the best choice for us, reasoning backwards from this step where it's a good typing but doesn't particularly lend itself to a specific role. We will have to rely on our ability to pull a lot of weight, but even with that some roles are better than others.
  • CAP32 shouldn't be a stealth rocker, because being weak to Ground means with its average stats means even with super-effective STAB it's liable to be forced out by common rapid spinners like Equilibra, Colossoil, Great Tusk.
  • CAP32 shouldn't be fully utility-focused, as that would waste our very good SE coverage across the metagame.
  • CAP32 shouldn't be a damage-maximizing wallbreaker, as that would compete too much with Iron Moth.
As can be seen with Volkraken in previous generations if not this one, Choice items are often good items for those Pokemon that are difficult to switch in to. I think our super-effective coverage makes CAP32 a good choice for these. We're going to need to give it decent speed as well to make use of its coverage.

So I think the best-fitting roles are Revenge-killer and pivot of some sort, either defensively or offensively weighted.
 
So having observed this thread and the Discord, I do feel like the role of a pivot has been a somewhat general consensus. Not to say it’s been universal or anything, but there has been a large amount of support for it. The main discussion point has, to me, been between being an offensive or defensive pivot. However, I would argue that on a Pokémon with average stats, the distinction between these two is actually not all that great. Take Rotom-Wash, for example. Since Generation 5, its 50/65/107/105/107/86 stats have been run both as a bulky defensive pivot and an offensive Choice Scarf pivot to gain momentum for its team. This is not to say we should try to be both an offensive or defensive pivot, but depending on the choices we make in future stages, even if we choose to be offensive or defensive, the inverse could be very well possible. More specialized builds are definitely on the table as well, however. My personal suggestion is to settle on a general Pivot role and allow more flexibility in the ability stage. There are absolutely abilities which can tip us towards a more offensive or defensive outlook, but the lines between the two can, outside of more extreme builds, very easily blur. This isn’t to say we couldn’t theoretically pick, but it does somewhat feel like we’re fighting over table scraps at this point.
 

spoo

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Back with a post as promised, let's recap discussion.

Fire/Fairy is, to no one's surprise, a very balanced and flexible type combination. In a way, it's nice that discussion has been so split between offensive and defensive leaning routes; it means that both will likely be solid in their own ways. However, no matter which way we go, we will also face competition. There are a myriad of other strong Fire-type walls and wallbreakers in this tier, as well as Fairy breakers like Jumbao and Valiant –– so, whatever role we end up in, we will need to execute on it in a way that is completely unique to us; this much is clear to me.

I'm gonna put my cards on the table and say that if our typing's strength is its balanced capability to both apply offensive pressure and answer key threats, then I think we should lean into that. Roles that utilize our full spectrum of offensive and defensive merits (it doesn't have to be an equal 50/50 split) are the ones that catch my eye the most. This is why purely wallbreaking-focused and sit-around defensive roles haven't interested me much so far; we likely don't have the typing or the stats to safely go into a glass cannon or brick wall type build. With that said, here are the roles I'm most favorable towards right now.

Offensive Hazard Setter
Our good STAB combo is capable of generating free turns for us to get em up and hits the best removers (Libra/Tusk/Corv) super-effectively. While a defensive setter might get too easily pressured by these Pokemon, as an offensive setter, it's more likely us who would be forcing them out with our STABs and not the other way around. Pokemon like Spikes Meow/Gren and Rocks offensive Tusk are exemplars of how a role like this can be effective, but the competition is still low enough to where we can reasonably assert ourselves onto a team.

Defensive Pivot
The line between wall and pivot is very thin here, and the two roles aren't mutually exclusive either, so I'll clarify that what I'm envisioning is just a defensive Pokemon that can still actively apply offensive pressure in some way. Being too passive is an easy trap to fall into, so it's important for us to maintain some way to consistently threaten the opponent and generate momentum as a defensive piece. For what it's worth, being a pivot does not mean that we need to use a pivoting move like U-turn; some of the best defensive pivots in the metagame don't utilize actual pivoting moves at all.

Offensive Pivot
Again, the line between pivot and wallbreaker is thin here; many wallbreakers are offensive pivots, and vice versa. The main difference in my mind is just not committing to a full glass cannon chassis a la Blacephalon or Breloom. Our typing has good defensive merit, so let's not completely ignore that; hell, even Dragapult could find itself useful in SS as a one-time switchin to Urshifu-R or Heatran if you were in a pinch, as is current Greninja for something like Gholdengo/Kingambit. Our STABs do a good enough job at pressuring the defensive metagame (especially with the right coverage), and I think this route has plenty of ability choices that could either bolster our offensive output or make it far easier for us to find our way onto the field.

These are the three options I'm considering sending to a poll right now. There are some roles that have flown under the radar, like Tank or Set-up Sweeper, so I'm giving you all 24 hours to make any final arguments for changes to this slate before I close this thread.
 

dex

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CAP32 shouldn't be a damage-maximizing wallbreaker, as that would compete too much with Iron Moth.
There is room to coexist with Iron Moth as a wallbreaker. Iron Moth is not the meta-defining threat you are making it out to be; it is good, and it is better in CAP than it is in OU due to its interaction with Jumbao, but it is one mon. There are still plenty of use cases to be filled in the Fire-type wallbreaker area.

As can be seen with Volkraken in previous generations if not this one, Choice items are often good items for those Pokemon that are difficult to switch in to.
If Volkraken could've run boots, it would have. Volkraken is an unpopular choice in XY due to how good Volcanion is, similarly unpopular in SM due to Toxapex's dominance, and niche to say the least in SS. The reason Volkraken always opted for a choice item in Gen 8 over boots is not because it "could" but because it needed to to differentiate itself from its competition. Boots Volkraken was an infinitely worse boots Volcanion, the power behind Choice Specs at least gave it something to do. This is coming from the person who probably played the most with Volkraken in SS tours out of anyone; I love the mon, but choice items were a necessity, not a luxury. Ability withstanding, building with Boots in mind is going to be at the forefront of discussion.
 
Oh wait Tank exists

W TANK

Anyway on the Slate my vote would go towards Defensive Pivot, but I’m going on the campaign train for Tank, just look at my other posts for why I like the “idea” of a tank. I think Tank should be considered to be on the slate as like you said spoo I agree that the best of both worlds (omg Hannah Montana reference) is the path to go for CAP32, and Tank definitely fits the bill.
 
I think a role that should still be discussed still, that hasn’t seen any talk is that of a revenge killer or cleaner.
We already established that fire fairy is a solid mix of defensive with good resists, and offensive with a great STAB combination (with moves that are usually solid to lock into).
While fire isn’t great at holding a choice scarf and our stat spread likely won’t allow to outspeed the fastest mons without one, there are still ways to encourage builds with lower speeds, that still can outpace most fast mons (no not only priority).
If we lean into offensive pivot revenge killing is already a natural extension of that build anyway. Additionally fire fairy is really good offensively into a lot of fast and frail mons and checks some of them really well defensively.
Moving faster than mons like Pult, Valiant Meowscarada, Greninja, Wake, Garchomp, Jumbao, Baxcalibur, Caribolt, Roaring moon or cinderace would allow CAP32 to threaten them offensively and check them defensively at the same time, getting more value from only one stat.
Moreover Fire fairy resists almost every priority move with the exception of bullet punch which we are neutral to and aqua jet, which atm is still fairly rare.
What’s also cool about this role is that a fair few of the STAB moves we get access to naturally compress moveslots, which is great to expand coverage for weaker but fast attackers or crippling utility for a Mon that is more focused on team support.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
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I think a role that should still be discussed still, that hasn’t seen any talk is that of a revenge killer or cleaner.
I am going to go as far to say that revenge killer isn't a role as much as a binary most offensive mons can turn on and off based on their speed relative to the opposing team. If you are a good revenge killer or cleaner, you are probably good at something else anyways. Dedicated revenge killers are bad, but really fast wallbreakers, hazard setters, sweepers, and pivots are good!

On the topic of the slate, I am not going to comment on Hazard Setter because it is pretty clear cut in what we would want CAP32 to do. There is obviously the gambit of how setters do this ranging from Sash Torrent Greninja to Arghonaut for example, but we at least have a very distinct objective to hone in on.

The pivoting role is broad, so time to dig in. Pivoting is as much as a role as it is an decision during a match. The fundamental role of any pivot is that you have a Pokemon you want to switch in but cannot safely do so, so you use another Pokemon to create an opportunity. So, what are the traits of a good pivot?

1. Good pivots either force switches or generate momentum through pivoting moves/items
2. Great pivots contribute more to the team than just pivoting
3. All pivots have a teammate that benefits from their presence

Point 1 is where the difference between an offensive pivot and defensive pivot is most distinct:
  • Offensive pivots force the opponent to switch
  • Defensive pivots don't care if the opponent switches, they will tank the hit and get their ally in with a pivoting move/item
Examples of offensive pivots include the obvious examples, like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, Krilowatt, Tapu Koko, and Rotom-Wash. These Pokemon all have typing, abilities, or in Krilowatt's case, base 151 HP to allow them to switch in on threats, but the offensive presence to then force those threats out. All of these pivots have pivoting moves, which is not required for a good pivot but makes thing a lot simpler by scouting the opponent. Examples of offensive pivots without scouting moves include Garchomp and Heatran, who have generally strong stats, abilities, typings, and moves to force switches. The Pokemon are obviously more reliant on double switching and/or baiting in specific answers, but no one would deny their effectiveness in older gens.

But offensive pivots can include defensive Pokemon! No one would deny that Garganacl and Toxapex (especially Scald/Knock Pex) where pivots at their best while also being defensive Pokemon. But both of these Pokemon work as effective pivots because they force switches. Salt Cure, Scald, and Toxic applied pressure, forcing a defensive response from the opponent. They are active threats, not passive ones, that will come out on top if you stay in. So some of the best "defensive" pivots in the metagame work because of their offensive presence in combination with their defensive prowess.

A true defensive pivot is a Pokemon that is designed to tank hits and then get their ally in safely regardless if the opponent switches or not. This is done pretty much exclusively through pivoting moves and items. The best example of this is a Pokemon like Corviknight. It doesn't need to apply pressure to force the opponent to switch when it comes in; it just has to not take enough damage to get a U-turn off so you can bring in your threat. Eject Button Toxapex is another good example of this, although it only gets to do it once. There are definitely Pokemon that can flex into both defensive and offensive pivot, sometimes multiple times in the same game. Gen 8 Slowbro is probably the textbook example. It can generate offensive pressure through Future Sight and Scald as much as Teleporting to its teammate.

And then there are some pivots which hybridize the role by sacrificing themselves. Explosion Landorus-T, Healing Wish Jumbao, and Orthworm are all pivots, but they do so at their own expense because the payoff is worth it. Orthworm is especially notable with how good Shed Tail is as a pivoting move and leads to point 2.

Great pivots do more than just pivot. Orthworm is mostly a Shed Tail bot, but is has a couple other important traits it can compress into its moveset that makes the Pokemon shine on offense. It offers hazards, Ground immunity, and a meaty Body Press for Tera Normal Dnite and Kingambit on an archetype that desperately wants them. So while Orthworm at the end of the day wants to get off Shed Tail every game, it has other situational things it can do and add to the team when it gets the chance. This is true for pretty much every Pokemon I have mentioned up to this point; there are hazard setters, stallbreakers, speed control, walls, and wallbreakers that ultimately play the role of pivot.

So what does it mean for CAP32 then to be a pivot if pivoting encapsulates so many other roles and strategies?

Point 3 is where the pivoting role really comes into design space. Pivots need strong, synergistic teammates to be effective by definition. CAP32's development would tie in with the offensive threats of the metagame that take advantage of the Pokemon CAP32 brings in, or the space generated by CAP32's pivoting moves. This isn't as much of a "partner concept" as much as acknowledging that CAP32 does not exist in a vacuum, and how it fits on a team is important to any Pokemon's design, but fundamental to a pivot. We would need to approach checks and counters not only with what Pokemon switch into CAP32, but how those switches can allow CAP32 to set-up a board favorable for its teammate.
 
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I think a role that should still be discussed still, that hasn’t seen any talk is that of a revenge killer or cleaner.
We already established that fire fairy is a solid mix of defensive with good resists, and offensive with a great STAB combination (with moves that are usually solid to lock into).
While fire isn’t great at holding a choice scarf and our stat spread likely won’t allow to outspeed the fastest mons without one, there are still ways to encourage builds with lower speeds, that still can outpace most fast mons (no not only priority).
If we lean into offensive pivot revenge killing is already a natural extension of that build anyway. Additionally fire fairy is really good offensively into a lot of fast and frail mons and checks some of them really well defensively.
Moving faster than mons like Pult, Valiant Meowscarada, Greninja, Wake, Garchomp, Jumbao, Baxcalibur, Caribolt, Roaring moon or cinderace would allow CAP32 to threaten them offensively and check them defensively at the same time, getting more value from only one stat.
Moreover Fire fairy resists almost every priority move with the exception of bullet punch which we are neutral to and aqua jet, which atm is still fairly rare.
What’s also cool about this role is that a fair few of the STAB moves we get access to naturally compress moveslots, which is great to expand coverage for weaker but fast attackers or crippling utility for a Mon that is more focused on team support.
How would you make a good revenge killer without standout speed and stab prio, and on a mon that discourages scarf? I dunno, it seems like one of the weaker routes although anything is possible. Im guessing this is something that cant be discussed without polljumping that you have in your mind here, or Im not getting it.
 
Anyway I think CAP32 should possess a mix of these roles in some shape or form: hazard setter/“protector” (i.e. what Ghold does), offensive pressure, wall, and pivot. I think all of these roles have been taken to a great liking by most of the thread, and I also agree that Fire/Fairy fits quite nicely with all of them. However, I’m aware that shoving them all into one Mon is kinda overwhelming and not good for CAP32’s success.
I really like the Gholdengo comparison given what we've said so far about the Fire+Fairy matchup against most hazard removal. CAP32 though will need support with an offensive movepool/ability to compensate for its lack of stat firepower, Good as Gold, and spinblocking power. If this mon is just going to click flamethrower, it's not going to stop libra or corvi from getting them off. That's where I think pivoting will work well so that this mon can work within a core that can maintain pressure on hazard removing options. I'm nervous about what kind of Fire attacks this will be able to use without sacrificing health in recoil or poor accuracy.
 

spoo

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There wasn't a ton of further discussion on edits to the slate, so I'll be going with what I first shared:

Offensive Hazard Setter
Our good STAB combo directly threatens the best removal options in the tier and is strong enough to generate free turns for setting hazards. While Pokemon like Spikes Meowscarada and Greninja offer good examples of how this role can perform in practice, we could likely still take a number of different approaches to actualizing it, and competition is low enough for us to fit on teams relatively easily. Moreover, leaning into utility offers us a way to circumvent our average stats and bring something else to the table besides sheer offensive or defensive potential.

Defensive Pivot
Our typing offers great benefits on both the offensive and defensive side, so it's sensible to take a defensive route that can pressure the opponent just by virtue of its STABs. It's true that defensive pivot is a very vague and broad term, but that's fine; all we need to understand is that we will be bulky enough to answer key offensive threats, but also be able to hold onto momentum through traits such as immediate damage output, excellent utility, snowballing potential, pivoting moves, etc. Basically, for our purposes we're a defensive mon that doesn't want to be too passive. This should be broad enough to allow for multiple viable routes moving forward but nonetheless provide us a good sense of direction.

Offensive Pivot
Out of the three, this role leans the most into Fire/Fairy's offensive potential against common metagame staples. As with defensive pivot, an offensive pivot is a pretty vague role –– the main things I will specify are that this role avoids a glass cannon build, and that pivoting moves are typically more common on offensive pivots than their defensive counterparts. It's also important to note that ending up in a good speed tier might be particularly helpful to this role (though, I don't see it as outright necessary either).

I feel great about all three of these choices and look forward to Defining Moves pt. 1 with shnowshner after we've collectively chosen our role. A poll with these three options will be up in the morning (7-8 hours but don't hold me to that), thanks everyone for your patience this stage and for sharing your opinions as always.
 
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